With a running time of almost three hours and a cacophony of almost wall-to-wall action sequences, editing John Wick: Chapter 4 would have been no easy task. Thankfully, though, it’s a job that Nathan Orloff was perfectly suited for.
In fact, the latest installment in the blockbuster action franchise is currently the sharp-suited assassin’s top-rated outing on Rotten Tomatoes, with the Ghostbusters Afterlife veteran making it look as if he’s been part of the franchise since the very beginning, despite his status as the third different editor to have cut one of Keanu Reeves’ globetrotting rampages of revenge.
Ahead of Chapter 4‘s release to theaters tomorrow, We Got This Covered had the chance to speak to Orloff about how he got involved with the project, the pressures of joining such an established crew, how to handle the signature set pieces, the lengthy running time, and much more, which you can check out below.
As the third editor to work on a John Wick movie, how did you end up getting involved in the project to begin with?
Well, Evan Schiff, who edited the previous Chapters – two and three – was unavailable for the show. So Chad sort of interviewed a lot of different editors. And yeah, him and I just sort of hit it off.
And many months later, he told me that one of the reasons they did select me is that I don’t have extensive experience in action films, but he kind of wanted someone that would approach this just to make a good movie, and just find the John Wick movie that was there. And not kind of like a traditional action film, because John Wick is pretty much the antithesis sometimes, cutting-wise.
Like you said, Evan Schiff edited Chapters 2 and 3 – and you were both part of the editing department on Star Trek Into Darkness – so were there any conversations or communications between the two of you after you got the job on Chapter 4?
Absolutely. You know, he helped me set some expectations of what Chad is like, and like working with, especially on set. And so, it was very, very helpful.
Were you a fan of the first three beforehand, or did you have to go on a John Wick crash course to get a feel for things?
No, absolutely, I was a big fan of the series. And especially that it is a different kind of action editing, an action film than what’s common currently, especially when the first one came out. I admired the films a lot. So I was really excited to join.
Chapter 4 is obviously the fourth film in the franchise, but you’re the third different editor to have cut one of the movies. Were there certain cues and hallmarks you had to follow, or were you encouraged and inspired to take things in a new direction?
Kind of both. I mean, there’s definitely a precedent set of the style. And that really also just comes from Chad. But he, to his credit, he also let me experiment and do crazy things. He was constantly teasing me, he’s like, “I never thought I’d have a cross dissolve in one of my movies.”
So that was fun, to put my spin on it. But there’s definitely something to be said about how Chad leads, and how his kind of action is to get out of the way of it and show off how good the stunt performers are, and how good Keanu is. So is the cutting style in the movies that he recommended.
You know, beforehand I watched all sorts of classical movies, there was a musical that he wanted me to watch. And it to show how to get out of the way, and not use editing to try to punch up the action, because it doesn’t need to. You want to just show how good these people are.
A lot of modern action movies favor a faster cutting style, but one of the biggest selling points of John Wick is that you get to see that people – including Keanu, obviously – doing the stunts themselves without any help from doubles and CGI. Was that exciting for you as an editor to get to play with longer takes, that maybe you wouldn’t get on a similar project from a different filmmaker?
It was both a pleasure and a challenge. When you do longer takes, and you’re trying to cut less, when you do it better have a purpose, you know? It better really resonate, and have a meaning of why you’re doing it. It creates less opportunity to cheat, I would say, or get around issues.
There was sometimes very tricky ways to link one shot to the next, or one scene to the next. And so there’s definitely some times we’re like,”Well, that’s the only way that’s going to come together,” and I mean obviously it works, and I’m very happy with it. But it was definitely a puzzle.
The franchise has featured a close-knit group of creatives, cast members and crew members since the beginning, did you feel under any added or increased pressures or expectations joining the John Wick family at the fourth installment stage?
Yes and no. It was both. It was a little bit daunting, but also was just, in another way, it very much helped. Because instead of… let’s say, finding what a character like Winston should feel like, I already had a really strong impression of like, “Oh, that’s Winston.” Or, you know, “That’s the Bowery King,” because these characters are established. It was a little more obvious of which direction to go, and what takes to select them, and how to cut them.
The final cut of the movie is 169 minutes including credits, so I feel obligated to ask how long the assembly cut must have been when they generally tend to be a lot longer than what gets released to theaters?
Yeah, the assembly cut was three hours and 45 minutes.
I would be completely on board with a three hour and 45 minute John Wick movie.
It’s kind of the shocking thing is that it’s actually not crazy different. It’s just that we didn’t do any crazy restructuring, There’s definitely stuff that we lifted and just lost because we only wanted to keep the very best stunts, you know?
And that’s the fascinating thing, is like the scenes start to really improve when you have an A+ stunt, and then an A- stunt, and then an A+ stunt. They kind of start to average out lower than how good they are.
So when you start removing the stuff that’s just not quite as great as the other stuff, or not quite as kinetic, all of a sudden it elevates the sequence as a whole, and the film.
Even though you don’t see a lot of action movies that come within touching three hours all that often, there’s no excess fat on its bones. It justifies being as long as it is, but were there any discussions or disagreements about cutting it down even further?
There are definitely, definitely people involved that wanted the movie to be shorter. I mean, there’s even financial reasons to want the movie to be shorter, you know, so you can squeeze more screenings in a day at a theater. It was a big discussion, I would say that was the big, big thing.
We ironed out the action, we ironed out the performances, the movie was working well. And it was all about, “How do we tell this story in the most efficient way possible?” And we tried versions that were shorter, but it started sacrificing the cost of scenes. And it’s kind of fascinating that when you start editing for pacing, and the scenes start to get worse because they can’t breathe, and you don’t feel the emotionality of what’s going on.
You’re just going, “That actually makes the movie feel longer.” There’s definitely a version of the movie that was shorter, but it felt longer. And so, it felt important to us to prioritize how each scene played. But it was a constant discussion. But we previewed the movie, and it previewed really well. And so then, we’re all kind of on the same page by the end.
Based on the most recent box office projections for opening weekend numbers, it doesn’t look like screenings per day is going to be an issue, because there’s a lot of people out there who can’t wait for nearly three hours of John Wick.
Yeah, totally!
You’ve been involved in several movies with plenty of action, but this is your first pure action movie in a sense. Was it always something you envisioned yourself tackling eventually, or was Chapter 4 the right project at the right time in your career?
Yeah. It wasn’t necessarily a surprise. I was very, very excited to have the opportunity and… I approach every film as sort of the same. I look at action. I look at the way Keanu handles a gun, and it’s dialogue, it’s story. It’s visual storytelling. And as long as there’s clarity, and stakes, and setup, and payoff. It’s not – to me – completely different. It’s just how you accomplish that.
I look at the action scenes, as having to explain something to a five year-old blind child. It’s like, each shot should be a sentence. John escapes this person. Next shot, John stops, Next shot, three cars come to a stop. And those are like these little mini stories you have to tell without dialogue, and that to me was how you prioritized clarity.
And that, to me, is a hallmark of the John Wick series. Showing and being completely clear on the geography, stunts, what you’re seeing. And that’s sort of how I approached it. Just to make make sure that if I wrote all this down as a sentence, you’re able to follow it, it wasn’t just cutting to cut.
One of the trademarks of the franchise – even though it’s not self-aware and winking, and the stories are about serious people doing serious things, is that there’s a playfulness in that the characters know exactly what kind of heightened reality they exist in. Was that something in the back of your mind while editing? Because it’s not parody, but the people in the movies know that the things happening onscreen are ridiculous.
No, absolutely. And that’s this fascinating thing to me about the tone of John Wick, is that there is a lot of funny elements to these movies. But whole reason it works is that the cast takes everything 100 percent seriously. And that’s really important to the framework of why the world works, and the mythology works.
But it doesn’t mean you can’t have fun, because one of the big influences on Chad is Buster Keaton and silent films. And so I look at these movies like Looney Tunes for adults. And there’s these… you’re supposed to be impressed by the action, and so the pairing of these different tones to me, like how Keanu was very much channeling what I would call a Clint Eastwood Western protagonist, and yet we pair it with a stair fall. That’s hilarious!
And it’s important that they ground the film. Because otherwise, we’re not gasping. The stakes have to be real, but you can still laugh. It’s this really interesting tone that Chad is honed in on, and I actually think that – especially with Chapter 4 – comedy kind of came organically. It wasn’t necessarily… we never approached it thinking it was gonna be as funny as it was, but it just sort of came to be that.
I found that if you laughed, you were okay with John Wick surviving something insane. And versus, trying to take that seriously. So it was a really interesting balance to try to strike.
There’s been a lengthy delay as a result of the pandemic, with Chapter 4 first set to hit theaters in May of 2021. Did that hiatus give you time to take a breather and then return to the editing room with a fresher perspective, or has it been an ongoing process right the way through?
I wasn’t actually involved in the project at that time before it got delayed. I got hired pretty recent, or pretty close to when production started. So I’m glad it was delayed so that I can be a part of it!
Production started in June 2021, so that’s still an almost two-year commitment. What was your process? Were you in full John Wick mode all the way through?
Yeah. Basically, I flew to Berlin in June, and was there for four months, and then I went to Paris for two, and then came back to LA, and we were in production for a long time. You know, the VFX in the film. were pretty extensive, especially for John Wick movie. It’s funny how the stunts are so real. The car hits when people get hit by cars. They’re all real. It’s backgrounds and stuff.
We couldn’t do that sequence at the Arc de Triomphe actually at the arc. But they had cars, they had the stuntman do those things, and it was all about replacing backgrounds, and that was an extensive 3D compositing, so that you’re not noticing that it’s the effects. You’re totally looking at Keanu and these great stuntmen performing.
Were you on set all the way through production? There’s a lot of cases where the editors come and go, but how heavily involved were you in the day-to-day in terms of cutting as shooting carried along?
They shot nights. And I worked actually normal hours, but it worked out well, because what I would do is cut during the day, and around seven, eight o’clock, I stroll down to set and basically show Chad what I’ve been working on, on my iPad, and get some notes, and then leave around 10 o’clock, and then start over the next day.
And so it wasn’t actually “on set” on set, it was more like I was there to provide feedback like, “Hey, you shot this yesterday, what if we had a wide shot here to help connect this to this?” It was really useful for me to be there, but it was not “on set” on set the entire time.
Chad has an extensive and impressive background as a stunt performer, choreographer, and second unit director, so how did you guys come up with the ideal creative solution on how to structure the action sequences in the editing room? Evan Schiff said previously he’d cut his version of a scene, and Chad would cut his, and then they’d compare, contrast, and combine to find the best version – did you have a similar process?
Yeah, it was an interesting process that didn’t really happen on this one. He had an Avid that he’d work on, I know he would investigate – on his own accord – different versions of the scene, and then come and talk to me and be like, “What about this take? What about this?” But for the most part, it was actually just us working together.
The franchise has been Chad and Keanu’s baby since day one and they arguably know it better than anyone else, but editors are often steadfast in what the final cut should be. Was it difficult at all to get into a rhythm while production was ongoing, like you said when they were shooting at night and you were cutting during the day?
You know, it actually wasn’t really that hard to get in the rhythm, I kind of got along really well. And yeah, he was very was wonderful to work with, and even Keanu, there’d be some times where he’s shown stuff. It was very, very good and collaborative.
A lot of people say that the job of a great editor is for the audience to become so immersed in what they’re watching that all of the hard work put in doesn’t even get noticed because you’re so drawn into what’s happening onscreen, is that a sentiment that you agree with?
Yeah, for the most part. There’s definitely some times where you think you can break rules, and get out and do something noticeable to underline something. I’m all about establishing rules, and then at choice moments, choosing to break them To me, that’s an important part of cinematic language that you create as the film goes on. And it was definitely part of this, in terms of I would have this rule set up of how to approach it, and at certain moments I totally break the rule.
With a prequel series, a spinoff, and Chapter 5 inevitably on the cards, are you hoping to be brought back into the John Wick fold in the future?
If Chad’s doing it, I’m in, and I’d love to. Absolutely.
Speaking of sequels, the follow-up to Ghostbusters: Afterlife has only started shooting in the last week or so, are you returning for that after the success of the first film?
Yeah, I’m actually flying to London in a few hours to join them and begin cutting on that.
That’s a succession of big budget blockbuster fantasies in a row.
Yeah, yeah. That’s kind of wild!
You’ve covered a lot of different genre bases in your career so far from intimate dramas and comedy to effects-heavy blockbusters and now a major action franchise, but are there any filmmakers, properties, or genres on your list that you’d love to get involved with in the future?
I kind of just would love to touch every single genre. I definitely want to do a movie without guns at one point! I love doing pure comedies, like Plan B that I’ve done. I would love to touch, you know, sci-fi epics, or pure dramas and, and I’d definitely love to do a horror movie.
John Wick: Chapter 4 hits theaters tomorrow, Mar. 24, and you can check out our review of the movie here.